Now that that's behind us...,
#1
This is where I'll be focusing my rally planning going forward. The dual planning between here and PAFOA was tiresome and difficult to manage. Of course, we can cross post to get attendance up, but that's what I do already by posting at places like arfcom, facebook, and such.

It was in parallel with PAFOA only because the planning for this rally started before PA2A became a thing.
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#2
With what you accomplished, I can't wait to see what we can do with some actual planning time in the future. Awesome job man.
#3
Yeah I just saw the security information posted on PAFOA and it's pretty impressive stuff. I'm taking it the 3% group handled that which is pretty cool.
#4
If we're going to become an organization I think we need to have monthly meetings and assign roles like president, treasurer, secretary etc. Do it via live stream between board members and use standard parliamentary procedure. We would cover old business, new business, treasurers report etc to easily be able to bring everything together for discussion and planning going forward. Thoughts?
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#5
Gixxer, I respectfully disagree. This is Justin's venture. His is the king, and I'm ok with that going forward.

Establishing any type of structure like you suggest potentially opens the door to disagreement and attempts at overthrow.

It's very clear that Justin is not only is open to our input, but WANTS it. That said, as he noted with "walking away", this is HIS party. He has now put his face and real name on this place, and I don't think he should be vulnerable to a few upstarts that may come along at some point, especially when we know we're already making waves with some of our "allies." (term used loosely)
#6
(06-09-2020, 02:35 PM)gnbrotz Wrote: Gixxer, I respectfully disagree. This is Justin's venture. His is the king, and I'm ok with that going forward.

Establishing any type of structure like you suggest potentially opens the door to disagreement and attempts at overthrow.

It's very clear that Justin is not only is open to our input, but WANTS it. That said, as he noted with "walking away", this is HIS party. He has now put his face and real name on this place, and I don't think he should be vulnerable to a few upstarts that may come along at some point, especially when we know we're already making waves with some of our "allies." (term used loosely)
Understood. Maybe dialed down a little and not have "voting members" at least? Just trying to thing of ways to keep track of everything on a monthly sit down brainstorming session more than anything. Maybe the forum is enough to fill that role.
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#7
(06-09-2020, 02:39 PM)Mr_Gixxer Wrote:
Understood. Maybe dialed down a little and not have "voting members" at least? Just trying to thing of ways to keep track of everything on a monthly sit down brainstorming session more than anything. Maybe the forum is enough to fill that role.
Let me clarify a little bit. As things progress, I'd very much like to see many of us regulars assume specific parts of the work load in ways that Justin approves of and that help lighten his load (much like you did with COMS this time). I also don't have an issue with the concept of regularly scheduled conversations with core contributors (whether that includes me or not) to make sure things are continuing on track.

What I don't want to see is any type of structure that would suggest this is a democracy and allow anyone to think (even mistakenly) that there is an opportunity for "conquest".
#8
(06-09-2020, 02:54 PM)gnbrotz Wrote:
(06-09-2020, 02:39 PM)Mr_Gixxer Wrote:
Understood. Maybe dialed down a little and not have "voting members" at least? Just trying to thing of ways to keep track of everything on a monthly sit down brainstorming session more than anything. Maybe the forum is enough to fill that role.
Let me clarify a little bit. As things progress, I'd very much like to see many of us regulars assume specific parts of the work load in ways that Justin approves of and that help lighten his load (much like you did with COMS this time). I also don't have an issue with the concept of regularly scheduled conversations with core contributors (whether that includes me or not) to make sure things are continuing on track.

What I don't want to see is any type of structure that would suggest this is a democracy and allow anyone to think (even mistakenly) that there is an opportunity for "conquest".

Agreed 100%
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#9
I hear where your coming from but that’s the exact problem with DanP and PAFOA. Every idea that involves using the name ends up having to go though “the board” who ever they may be and more often then not nothing is ever answered or allowed.

I think the purpose of this site is to say there’s a issue here, let’s get some heads there and promote it by bombing social media with the specifics. With bigger planned events like the yearly Harrisburg rally it’s just promoting some else’s gig and gathering heads outside and under the orgs name while trying to raise awareness for the Org and the overall cause.

I think if membership and followers grew to a large number and it could mass a lot of people then the orgs own planned rally’s would make sense.

I can’t speak for Justin but I think the donation or fund raising aspect was to just make it so where the merch and the site paid for itself. I don’t know if there was ever any intentions to raise money for political donations and legal fee donations.
#10
If Justin wants or needs any help, he's free to ask us. For now, I'd agree to let Justin guide this ship as far as he can take it on his own unless he reaches out to us to share the load.


If he ever needs a bookkeeper/treasurer role, I can help. That's what I do for a living. This service would include applying for 501©3, small games of chance licenses, etc. Just throwing that out there so he knows.
#11
Mr_Gixxer Wrote:If we're going to become an organization I think we need to have monthly meetings and assign roles like president, treasurer, secretary etc. Do it via live stream between board members and use standard parliamentary procedure. We would cover old business, new business, treasurers report etc to easily be able to bring everything together for discussion and planning going forward. Thoughts?

gnbrotz Wrote:Gixxer, I respectfully disagree. This is Justin's venture. His is the king, and I'm ok with that going forward.

Establishing any type of structure like you suggest potentially opens the door to disagreement and attempts at overthrow.

It's very clear that Justin is not only is open to our input, but WANTS it. That said, as he noted with "walking away", this is HIS party. He has now put his face and real name on this place, and I don't think he should be vulnerable to a few upstarts that may come along at some point, especially when we know we're already making waves with some of our "allies." (term used loosely)

Mr_Gixxer Wrote:
gnbrotz Wrote:Gixxer, I respectfully disagree. This is Justin's venture. His is the king, and I'm ok with that going forward.

Establishing any type of structure like you suggest potentially opens the door to disagreement and attempts at overthrow.

It's very clear that Justin is not only is open to our input, but WANTS it. That said, as he noted with "walking away", this is HIS party. He has now put his face and real name on this place, and I don't think he should be vulnerable to a few upstarts that may come along at some point, especially when we know we're already making waves with some of our "allies." (term used loosely)
Understood. Maybe dialed down a little and not have "voting members" at least? Just trying to thing of ways to keep track of everything on a monthly sit down brainstorming session more than anything. Maybe the forum is enough to fill that role.

gnbrotz Wrote:
Mr_Gixxer Wrote:
Understood. Maybe dialed down a little and not have "voting members" at least? Just trying to thing of ways to keep track of everything on a monthly sit down brainstorming session more than anything. Maybe the forum is enough to fill that role.
Let me clarify a little bit. As things progress, I'd very much like to see many of us regulars assume specific parts of the work load in ways that Justin approves of and that help lighten his load (much like you did with COMS this time). I also don't have an issue with the concept of regularly scheduled conversations with core contributors (whether that includes me or not) to make sure things are continuing on track.

What I don't want to see is any type of structure that would suggest this is a democracy and allow anyone to think (even mistakenly) that there is an opportunity for "conquest".

TheGreenMan Wrote:I hear where your coming from but that’s the exact problem with DanP and PAFOA. Every idea that involves using the name ends up having to go though “the board” who ever they may be and more often then not nothing is ever answered or allowed.

I think the purpose of this site is to say there’s a issue here, let’s get some heads there and promote it by bombing social media with the specifics. With bigger planned events like the yearly Harrisburg rally it’s just promoting some else’s gig and gathering heads outside and under the orgs name while trying to raise awareness for the Org and the overall cause.

I think if membership and followers grew to a large number and it could mass a lot of people then the orgs own planned rally’s would make sense.

I can’t speak for Justin but I think the donation or fund raising aspect was to just make it so where the merch and the site paid for itself. I don’t know if there was ever any intentions to raise money for political donations and legal fee donations.

Great discussion! Maybe I should lay out my thoughts a bit.

1) (Most of this point is my opinion). All over social media, Val and GOA-PA have basically claimed this rally for themselves. I don't mind that in and of itself, because for me and PA2A, it's not about recognition, It's about having the rally and getting bodies there, but what would bother me is if our team wasn't recognized for their efforts. I recognize that sometimes there's large egos at play that do need that recognition, and sometimes it's necessary to advance the cause of a given organization. Right now in PA, and I don't mean this to be negative or say anything about any particular person or organization, but there's a large battle of egos between Val Finnell at GOA-PA and Kim Stolfer at FOAC. I'll spare you the boomer comments. :) In any case, that was revealed to me the other night when talking to Rich Saccone and again Mary Luna. Kim was set to "retire" in January but then Val and GOA started pushing the SASOs and he just couldn't have that. Val and GOA-PA claiming this rally for themselves is more of a power move and a poke in the eye to the original organizers to establish themselves as a dominant force in PA gun politics over Kim and his group. IMO. I don't think the intent was to diminish us and our work, but we MUST partner with GOA-PA because they are more aligned with our vision here, particularly if Bern is going to plant his flag here with his constant presence in Harrisburg idea. GOA-PA is moving forward with that. Val is moving to Harrisburg. They have an office there already. If we don't partner with GOA-PA, we'll likely never be able to really launch off the ground. Make no mistake, there wouldn't have been a rally for GOA-PA to claim if it wasn't for us. They weren't doing anything until I aske Rick Saccone to be involved. Also, PA2A will never be part of this fuckin drama. It's bullshit. We have a good relationship with Val, now Rick, and Bern is close with Val. We have a good ground floor to start with this GOA-PA partnership.

2) I have thought a lot about the long term plans of this place, and right now, I'm in a "wait and see" mode. We have to decide how/when/where we're going to do rallies. Or are we just going to support other rallies? Maybe it's in response to needs depending on what's going on with the politics there. If this leads us to becoming "big," we may have to go "official" with an LLC and 503.C type of stuff, which would mean naming a board and such. Right now, if it's just our handful of key people that simply bring along a bunch of bodies, then I want to avoid all of that.

3) I want to run this place pretty much like I run my power plant, and I think I'm doing that so far, despite someone claiming "my way or the highway." My style is called "leader- leader," where I allow people to own their solutions to their problems and to run with their ideas so long as they are in alignment with the overall goals and vision of the team. For example, when Gixxer basically said "I own the comms plan," I never once tried to micromanage him doing that. That's his skill set, he owned it, he checked in with me, I gave some feedback, and he crushed it. I don't know everything, or have the answers to everything, which is why I like having a team of key people to help figure things out. I will never micromanage someone and their part of the project, but I will give boundaries and feedback. At the end of the day, I do get to make decisions, and sometimes not everyone is going to like that and I might get accused of "my way or the highway." That's just the nature of the beast, and I shouldn't be pulled into the trap of swinging purses with them on forums, but I'm not perfect. I am also always open to constructive feedback. I don't mind getting a message saying "Hey Justin, maybe you could do this that or the other thing this way, I think it'll be a little better."

4) Solve problems. I really dislike when someone says there's a problem, but never offers solutions. Forums are full of people that identify everything wrong with what we're doing but then don't offer a solution. One example is the Metcalfe flyer for the rally. It was a shit flyer, and many people said that. The better way to handle that is to offer an alternative (while we know they would never take it). My point is, if someone wants to say we're doing something wrong at PA2A, I want a solution to come with it, and a solution that they're willing to own. What does this look like to me? "Justin, I think this thing is wrong, I INTEND ON doing this to fix it." When someone tells me a problem and their intended solution, 9/10 times I'm going to say "great, thanks!"


SO that's all to say that for now, we're playing to "let's see where this goes" game, recognizing the potential to have to be more formal with the organization. Oh, and if we ever had to do such an organization, I can assure you that we wouldn't be bogged down by process like at PAFOA. The point of all the above is to illustrate that while GNBrotz says I'm the "King," that's how I want to be the King haha. Those in the hand selected private forum and the moderators of this site are my board, or "the brass" as Gixxer would call it. :) I will do my best to solicit input from yinz and then make decisions. Sometimes decisions have to made quickly and on the fly. Please don't say it's "my way or the highway." :D
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#12
So why the BIG GOA push into PA all of the sudden? Do they see this as a particular key state when it comes to preserving gun rights? They have always been a National org doing what they can but which is fine by me and keeps me a member. Going from that to relocating here and opening an office in the capital makes me feel like they see something big.

Or maybe Val just really likes Harrisburg?
#13
I think Val actually cares and wants to stand and fight, and not just toe the line that others have made over the decades, you know, like the guy that said "This is my state". He's also retired. One thing I'm learning is that doing this full time is a full time job and I know understand why it's mostly retirees running things :D

I first met Val when he, Kim, and I sat shoulder to shoulder at the Pittsburgh hearings in December 2018 which led to the Pittsburgh rally in Jan 2019. Now both he and I are out on our own and not under a certain organizations wings.
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#14
All very well said Justin, and nothing you said there is contrary to my understanding and assumption. I think your leadership model is an excellent one, but also think the "reality" needs to be buried in there somewhere, even though is isn't (and shouldn't be) a daily talking point.

Perhaps we could settle on "benevolent overlord"?  Big Grin Angel
#15
gnbrotz Wrote:All very well said Justin, and nothing you said there is contrary to my understanding and assumption. I think your leadership model is an excellent one, but also think the "reality" needs to be buried in there somewhere, even though is isn't (and shouldn't be) a daily talking point.

Perhaps we could settle on "benevolent overlord"? Wink

Guys at work call me the Ayatollah.  Big Grin
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#16
Grand Poobah.
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#17
Oh captain, my captain.

Sounds more poetic.  Big Grin
#18
(06-09-2020, 08:35 PM)JustinHEMI Wrote: I think Val actually cares and wants to stand and fight, and not just toe the line that others have made over the decades, you know, like the guy that said "This is my state". He's also retired. One thing I'm learning is that doing this full time is a full time job and I know understand why it's mostly retirees running things Big Grin

I first met Val when he, Kim, and I sat shoulder to shoulder at the Pittsburgh hearings in December 2018 which led to the Pittsburgh rally in Jan 2019. Now both he and I are out on our own and not under a certain organizations wings.


I see, I did not realize he was already a PA resident.

Sorry I was the remediable kid in class.   Rolleyes

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